Wednesday, January 23, 2008
There was a recent Poker After Dark episode where Hellmuth and Bellande got into an altercation about rules and etiquette. When a player has position and checks to his opponent on the river, the opponent is obliged to reveal his hand. Oftentimes, the out-of-position opponent will verbally concede the hand by saying, "you got it" or something to that effect. This player will often get upset if he is forced to table his hand, especially if it is a complete bluff. I have played plenty of both live and online poker, and if I am supposed to reveal my cards first, I do so without hesitation. I have also irritated several opponents by checking a strong hand in position like two pair on a mildly threatening board and forcing my opponent to reveal his busted draw. I do not do this to needle the guy, although, if I call his bluff, the embarrassment factor could play a part. I would be interested to hear some general opinions. In my opinion, to claim, "I missed," or something to that effect without mucking your hand immediately is a total angle-shoot at either gathering information and/or claiming the pot.
On FullTiltPoker, the last aggressor automatically reveals his cards, even if he is in position. This protocol is rare in live poker, but the Borgata in Atlantic City also observes this convention. In a $40-$80 hand, I was heads-up as the small blind against the button. The flop came ace-high, I bet with top pair and called a raise. I check-called on the turn. On the river, I checked, and my opponent also checked. If I had been playing at the Trump Taj, I would have instantly turned my hand over, expecting to scoop. Being familiar with the Borgata rules, I did not turn my hand over, waiting for my opponent. He said, "You got it." I said, "You bet on the turn, you know the rules here." He was a solid player, and we both knew that I was going to win the pot, so he was a bit peeved that I was forcing him to reveal his losing hand in position. His response was to throw his cards at my chest!
In online games, all hands to showdown are essentially face-up. I have often wondered what the effect on live poker would be if every hand were turned up at showdown. I have also wished that in online poker, in a heads-up situation, one not have the ability to peek at the opponent's cards at showdown as there is no risk of multi-way collusion. This is more just a preference, as I have not actually considered whether I'd personally be gaining a relative advantage or not. That is, would my ability to play poker against my opponent be improved or worse if I were not allowed to examine my opponent's showdowns and visa versa?
Latest movies seen: Once (2007); Happy Feet (2006).
On FullTiltPoker, the last aggressor automatically reveals his cards, even if he is in position. This protocol is rare in live poker, but the Borgata in Atlantic City also observes this convention. In a $40-$80 hand, I was heads-up as the small blind against the button. The flop came ace-high, I bet with top pair and called a raise. I check-called on the turn. On the river, I checked, and my opponent also checked. If I had been playing at the Trump Taj, I would have instantly turned my hand over, expecting to scoop. Being familiar with the Borgata rules, I did not turn my hand over, waiting for my opponent. He said, "You got it." I said, "You bet on the turn, you know the rules here." He was a solid player, and we both knew that I was going to win the pot, so he was a bit peeved that I was forcing him to reveal his losing hand in position. His response was to throw his cards at my chest!
In online games, all hands to showdown are essentially face-up. I have often wondered what the effect on live poker would be if every hand were turned up at showdown. I have also wished that in online poker, in a heads-up situation, one not have the ability to peek at the opponent's cards at showdown as there is no risk of multi-way collusion. This is more just a preference, as I have not actually considered whether I'd personally be gaining a relative advantage or not. That is, would my ability to play poker against my opponent be improved or worse if I were not allowed to examine my opponent's showdowns and visa versa?
Latest movies seen: Once (2007); Happy Feet (2006).
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I happened to see this episode recently as well. I share your opinion on this. Having been on both ends, I have no problem showing my cards if I'm supposed to, although it can be embarassing. Your sentence ..."I missed," or something to that effect without mucking your hand immediately is a total angle-shoot at either gathering information and/or claiming the pot is the bottom line. Although I have read a poker pro/author somewhere say that the EV lost or gained by showing cards is probably not worth any worsening in action/demeanor at the table. I probably agree with that, but I hate perpetuating the bad habits. I also agree with you about online head up situations, though I haven't thought much about whether there is gain or not, only from a pure poker/information aspect in that it should emulate live poker.
I've been struggling with this dilemma as well. There are some standard courtesies I am willing to do other players if it's something that is generally accepted and practiced. Many players consider the situation you describe to fall into the "generally accepted" category. Still, I've been resisting this, and sometimes players get upset with me.
Like you, if it's my turn to turn over my hand, I'll nearly always show immediately, although I have to admit that occasionally I do try to get the other player to show first. I won't delay the game more than a second or two, though.
My reaction to the comment "you win" or "I missed" is to proceed under the assumption that my opponent intends to forfeit his hand. That is, I push my hand to the dealer face down (while still protected by a chip) and indicate that I'm expecting the pot to be pushed to me. Often this will prompt the other player to just muck his cards, allowing me to get the pot without even showing my hand. This doesn't work when the other player says something like "whadya got?" or "I have ace-high." This is the situation where I sometimes upset people because I don't do them the courtesy of showing my hand first. Instead I'll just say "show" or "I can beat that."
Like you, if it's my turn to turn over my hand, I'll nearly always show immediately, although I have to admit that occasionally I do try to get the other player to show first. I won't delay the game more than a second or two, though.
My reaction to the comment "you win" or "I missed" is to proceed under the assumption that my opponent intends to forfeit his hand. That is, I push my hand to the dealer face down (while still protected by a chip) and indicate that I'm expecting the pot to be pushed to me. Often this will prompt the other player to just muck his cards, allowing me to get the pot without even showing my hand. This doesn't work when the other player says something like "whadya got?" or "I have ace-high." This is the situation where I sometimes upset people because I don't do them the courtesy of showing my hand first. Instead I'll just say "show" or "I can beat that."
Great blog. I absolutely agree. There are so many shady poker sites out there. It's actually quite unbelievable. I haven't
had bad service with UB, but after reading your blog I am glad I cancelled account (not due to any customer service issues).
I did, however, have a horrible experience with FullTilt, and since then, have terminated my account. I cashed out a modest sum of around $600. However, I received a check in the amount of around $500 and then again in the amount of a couple hundred.
I received a check for an amount less than $600, but greater than $500. I emailed them to get some clarification one what was happening, but I didn't get a response for 48 hours. Realizing that they might have made a mistake, I emailed them saying that I'd be happy to return
the money. Well, they didn't believe me and froze my account. Then took the money out of my bank account accused me of stealing from them. Needless to say, I haven't played on Full Tilt since
even though they "welcome" me to play at their site again. I just play on PokerStars and PLayers only.
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had bad service with UB, but after reading your blog I am glad I cancelled account (not due to any customer service issues).
I did, however, have a horrible experience with FullTilt, and since then, have terminated my account. I cashed out a modest sum of around $600. However, I received a check in the amount of around $500 and then again in the amount of a couple hundred.
I received a check for an amount less than $600, but greater than $500. I emailed them to get some clarification one what was happening, but I didn't get a response for 48 hours. Realizing that they might have made a mistake, I emailed them saying that I'd be happy to return
the money. Well, they didn't believe me and froze my account. Then took the money out of my bank account accused me of stealing from them. Needless to say, I haven't played on Full Tilt since
even though they "welcome" me to play at their site again. I just play on PokerStars and PLayers only.
# posted by 
: 6:31 AM, February 08, 2008
: 6:31 AM, February 08, 2008 << Home
